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Melody

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:53 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2242 Location: TX

I would call it neither a fantasy nor a myth, although it has elements of both, considering much of the interpersonal conflict is based on a biblical story.

It's more a sweeping saga that challenges our ideas of what makes a person good or evil and what is revealed when we scratch below the surface beyond caricature and prejudice.

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Marj

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:01 pm

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan

Mel,

I agree with you. If I were reviewing the book, I'd call it a sweeping saga as well. So, I wonder why so many critics used words like "myth"? And fantasy is really a stretch, IMO.

I understand the reason for the use of the word "myth." I guess, I don't really agree with it.

yambu

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:06 pm

Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area

mitty wrote:

.....Samuel Hamilton was such a character. Romantic, wild, and loving family man all at the same time. Impractical to the nth degree....

He's all of those things, of course, and yet he is far from being my favorite character. I'll hold off giving my reasons until we are further along.

......I enjoyed the way Steinbeck brought out the way Europeans thought of land, and the way early settlers took up so much land because of the feudal overtones of their homeland.....

I did, too. A rather startling, unromantic way of saying Land of Opportunity.

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Melody

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:29 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2242 Location: TX

I bet I know who Yambu's favorite character is -- same as mine. And yes, this character comes in later.

Mitty, I think also the reason Samuel took so much land is because he could. He homesteaded what Steinbeck called "barren hills" and "marginal land," and with the birth of each child -- he and Liza had nine kids -- he added another quarter section, which if my math is correct is 160 acres per.

What I'm unclear on is if the state or federal government allowed this practice of adding land for each kid, and did Samuel have to pay for it, and did it only apply to crappy and/or uninhabited land? (Indians didn't count.)

_________________
My heart told my head: This time, no.

yambu

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:33 pm

Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area

Melody wrote:

I would call it neither a fantasy nor a myth, although it has elements of both, considering much of the interpersonal conflict is based on a biblical story.....

The dialogue is not realistic. Although this bothered me at times, I don't call it a weakness, if one accepts that he is reaching - at times straining, IMO - for that mythic sense. It's the only way I can explain his style. I hope I hear other explanations.

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yambu

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:41 pm

Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area

Melody wrote:

I bet I know who Yambu's favorite character is -- same as mine....

I knew we would agree on this.

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Melody

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:08 pm

Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 2242 Location: TX

Some of the characters' monologues are a bit stilted, as when Cyrus explains to Adam why he's sending him and not Charles to the Army.

Quote:

...You're not clever. You don't know what you want. You have no proper fierceness. You let other people walk over you. Sometimes I think you're a weakling who will never amount to a dog turd. Does that answer your question? I love you better. I always have. This may be a bad thing to tell you, but it's true. I love you better. Else why would I have given myself the trouble of hurting you?...

Yambu, I'm curious as to what dialogue you're speaking of that bothered you the most (in Part One for now).

_________________
My heart told my head: This time, no.

mitty

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:29 pm

Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......

Samuel is not my favorite character, I just like him a lot more than Adam. Adam, as far as I can see is downright blind and basically, well to be blunt stupid. Blind to the point of stupidity. At least where his wife is concerned.

"My wife is one of those paragons---a woman who does not talk very
much"

Ye Gods!!!

Marj

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:30 pm

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan

Mel and Yambu,

How do you both know each other's favorite character? Or are you two using your secret code again. Hmmm. Cool

yambu

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:15 am

Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area

Melody wrote:

I'm curious as to what dialogue you're speaking of that bothered you the most (in Part One for now)...

No dialogue in Part One bothered me all that much, although there is a Steinbeckian heaviness to the exchanges between Charles and Adam. ( I remember feeling the same about Grapes of Wrath and Of Mice and Men). I think what's missing in Part One's dialogues, but not in some later parts with other characters, is any humor or irony whatsoever. When people are in intense conversation, those elements must creep in, as a communicating tool. Hemingway knew this.

I'll roll out the heavy artillery when we discuss Samuel Hamilton later on.

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yambu

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:24 am

Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area

Marj wrote:

Mel and Yambu,

How do you both know each other's favorite character? Or are you two using your secret code again. Hmmm.

There was never any secret code, and certainly not since the "legs" impasse. But I think probably we both have the same Confucius text (nudge nudge, wink wink).

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Marj

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:27 am

Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 10497 Location: Manhattan

Ohhhh!

Huh?

mitty

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:04 am

Joined: 02 Aug 2004 Posts: 1359 Location: Way Down Yonder.......

Hint: three letters...............two the same.

yambu

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:22 am

Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area

mitty wrote:

Samuel is not my favorite character, I just like him a lot more than Adam. Adam, as far as I can see is downright blind and basically, well to be blunt stupid......

Hold that thought!

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yambu

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:30 am

Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 6441 Location: SF Bay Area

Mel, I know we're just getting underway, and lots more folks should be troopng in. But I am using the soft-cover 2002 Penguin Edition. If this proves to be more or less the standard, then we can be citing passages by page number.

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